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Thread: 3D Printing on a CNC Router Mach3 Emc

  1. #1
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    Default 3D Printing on a CNC Router Mach3 Emc

    I have been looking at some of the cool stuff people have been making with their 3D printers, that I had to try one myself,



    where to start?



    After a long talk with Darrin the owner of www.fabitrabbit.com we teamed up to put our 2 cents into the 3D printing world,

    We did not like a few things the others were doing, not that it was wrong with what others are doing, but we felt learning / using ReplacatorG software, using Audiuno controls, and building an entire new machine for 3D printing was something we were not prepared to do, and we felt it was unnecessary since we already have cnc routers, which are the perfect platform for a 3D printer, and in most cases are stronger and much more accurate then any dedicated 3D printers, if you have ever looked at a MakerBot, Reprap, etc. you would understand.

    So our Objectives- design a better resolution 3D printing extruder in 2 weeks or less , use mach3 or emc for control, and do it on an existing cnc router

    Well less then 2 weeks later, the results so far have been great, and exceeded my expectations
    Extruder screwed to the side of router mount
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    3D printing a pen holder
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    All holes were printed
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    I truly did not think 3D printing had any value, but combined with this high resolution DualDrive extruder head, and the ability to finish machine the part with the same machine, if needed, use Mach3, and to create parts not otherwise do able, has got us thinking otherwise, itís been very fun so far.


    I prefer to use plastic t-nuts and clamps on my cnc router when ever possible, and my cutter likes them too, when it runs into them , here's some I printed
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    if anyone wants more detailed information just ask

    here are some stl files
    clamp-washer.STL
    clamp.STL
    T-Nut-half.STL
    T-Nut-bolt.STL

    Update
    Spider Print Head for CNC Routers
    We are currently offering a 3D Print Head Kit to convert cnc routers or mills
    Buy it here

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  2. #2
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    I can't wait to generate some great 3D data to print with this new head.

    A true dual-purpose machine that can print plastic then machine it if need be, or machine something and then print plastic over it will be new territory for us, AND I believe most others. This is truly exciting...

  3. #3
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    Very cool, I have been considering building a plastic extruding machine, adding it to an existing machine would be great. What is the tool chain you are using to drive it?
    Last edited by grumpygeek; 03-30-2012 at 08:39 AM.
    -GrumpyGeek

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    Quote Originally Posted by grumpygeek View Post
    Very cool, I have been considering building a plastic extruding machine, adding it to an existing machine would be great. What is the tool chain you are using to drive it?

    Hi Grumpy

    With 3D printing a part, the solid model / .STL file is sliced into thin layers in the Z axis plane, we do this on the cheap, as in free, so we are using Slic3r http://slic3r.org/ to slice our models and create the gcode, for the toolpath, and the extruder.


    I personally use Solidworks for drawing in 3D, but any 3D software that has the ability to save to .STL format will do, which most should have

    You can also take a look at http://www.thingiverse.com/, lots of free models to download there.

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    This is way cool...please keep info coming...I've got a couple of projects going right now so can't give this a go for a bit...but just to throw in something else that has my interest thought I'd show you a link to a 3d scanner...combining all three (Rockcliffe CNC, 3d printer option and a laser scanner) just opens up so many possibilities.

    http://www.david-laserscanner.com/

    Bob

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    Default A new first for 3D printing and machining in one step

    FabitRabbit has made what I believe is the first one ever to print a plastic 3D part and finish machine it on the same machine, without removing the part, think of the possibilities. job well done



    http://youtu.be/kTN8OWIhJNA

  7. #7
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    This DualDrive extruder is fully functional with the router under Mach3! Should be handy for small engraving on 3d prints, or to finish areas to tight tolerances. The program in that video was even half metric and half imperial. The Rockcliff board handles this all beautifully, and we still have one axis to spare in Mach3! Hmmmm.......

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    Here's our full setup

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    I am currently making my own nozzles, which have a much smaller diameter then whats available, but a common nozzle size is .3mm
    We designed a dual stepper filiment feeder, we run 2 motors from one single driver

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    I'm very interested in this idea. Please keep us posted on your results.

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    This DualDrive extruder is a nice simple setup. No dealing with the learning curve of using an Arduino board - ALL Mach3 running this baby! The hot end doesn't even require any electronics other than a transformer and a dimmer.

    This is also one of, if not THE first extruder design using two steppers. This makes for good torque to push that filament through the tiniest of nozzles. The smaller the nozzle, the more back-pressure created.

    May have to work on a two-head version next since Mach has one more axis available. Then we could print water-soluble supports for ABS parts!!!

    BTW, we're playing around with a new slicer program called "KISSlicer". It works VERY well for this scenario. The creator of the program was even kind enough to add a feature just for MACH users that outputs the extruder movements as "A" axis. It can be found at http://kisslicer.com

    The blue sample below was made with my DualDrive extruder, the white sample is from a very expensive industrial machine. With a little more tweaking I will get very close to the white sample, and save thousand$!!! Gotta love it.
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    Are you planning on selling kits or have info on making your own? I've been thinking hard about building my own 3d printer, but this would be a much easier way for me to start.

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    Quote Originally Posted by vtx1029 View Post
    Are you planning on selling kits or have info on making your own? I've been thinking hard about building my own 3d printer, but this would be a much easier way for me to start.
    There may be something in the works shortly... Subscribe to this thread for details to follow. Believe me, if you already have a router, this is the route to go. Very simplified...

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    A search on the net will show at least a hundred, if not more designs, on how to build a hot end, for a 3D printer extruder, well here is DualDrive version 1

    Hot End
    I had to re-do my hot end today, so I took the time to take a few pics
    the basic material is copper, which is a great conductor of heat,

    I use a 10-32 copper screw, which is drilled thru to accomodate the filiment diameter, a 1.75 - 2.00mm hole is drilled thru to almost reach the tip, then a smaller drill 0.5mm is used to form the actual nozzle dia, further shrinking of the nozzle can be done by inserting a piece of ni-chrome wire in the nozzle and crimping around the screw to squeeze the hole smaller, the nozzle shown below has a nozzle dia. of approx 0.15mm

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    fiberglass tape is used to isolate the ni-chrome from shorting out agaist the copper nozzle
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    you can get away without crimping a steel connector on the end of the ni-chrome wire, but you really need to have some type of steel crimped to make electrical connection as it will make your ni-chrome last longer, I have been using aligator clips to make connection, but I think I will try a connector this time, see what happens?
    the finished hot end is then covered in high heat muffler cement, when the cement is fully hard and dry, I will light it up and try manually pushing some ABS plastic thru it
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    This is awesome guys, I'm watching with great expectations as I am starting to build my new 4'x 4' CNC router to replace my 5'x 10' commercial router I sold. This will allow me to produce model parts on the same machine. I love it.

    Chuck

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    Hi Chuck,

    I have this running on my 4'x8' home built cnc and love it. I have so many options now when it comes to making things.

    Tell me, if a kit was available for this extruder, would you be interested?

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    Our 3D DualDrive extruder uses 2 stepper motors,


    The subject of driving 2 motors from one driver is often asked, can it be done?
    sometimes yes, and sometimes no

    When a single driver and two motors share the same load, it is possible in some circumstances to get resonance issues, this is when the load on each motor is not 100% equal to each other and when they share or are very rigidly connected to the same load and each other, one motor can put the other out of sync, I would not normally use this method but in this case of the 3d printer extruder the motors spin so slow, and the plastic filament has some give, the teeth of the pulleys actually bite the filament letting each motor find their position, , a single driver in this particular application work fine, and both motors stay in sync.

    Ideally each motor could have their own driver, step and direction outputs could be split into to 4 lines, therefore driving each driver with their own signal, from one axis letter and only 2 outputs.


    Here's a diagram how I wire 2 stepper motors to one drive,
    it works as long as the driver output is less then or equal to the total current of the two motors


    The two motor coils must be wired in series on PWM type drives, basically it tricks the driver into thinking it is driving one motor, as both motor coils are wired as one, (A+ A-) in the case of the 3D printer extruder, it worked out because both motors turn in the same direction, ( we got lucky for this application, because there is no way to have one motor turn opposite I think?)

    Driver we used for our extruder axis http://www.pololu.com/catalog/product/1183

    Dual Stepper motors were wired like this
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  17. #17
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    Thumbs up

    Yes I would be interested to see a kit available for this 3D process. This hole process saves me from making two different machines. Looking forward to seeing what comes out.

    Chuck

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    Do you have any details on the mount for the steppers and extruder? I have a friend with a RepRap he could make me the mount if you have some details.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Drools View Post
    Do you have any details on the mount for the steppers and extruder? I have a friend with a RepRap he could make me the mount if you have some details.
    We should have some PDFs in the next week or so...

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    The DualDrive Extruder CAD files are coming - printable, or machinable. Thanks for being patient. Take a look.

    BTW the part quality that we're getting is incredible. Seriously. KiSSlicer is proving to be phenomenal for this setup!
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  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by fabitrabbit View Post
    Hi Chuck,

    I have this running on my 4'x8' home built cnc and love it. I have so many options now when it comes to making things.

    Tell me, if a kit was available for this extruder, would you be interested?
    Im Bob, YES!!!!!!
    regards,
    Gadget
    model A, Joes Hybrid 4x4 alu., Taig Micro mill
    Probotix 4x----- 5axis board---Rockcliff 4x
    Bobcad/Bobart-cam Pro V25/26, ,Spider Printer for 3D !

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    Quote Originally Posted by gadget47 View Post
    Im Bob, YES!!!!!!
    We are doing some long-run testing and the results are very promising. It has run for well over 24 hours without a hitch. I smoked a couple of transformers that were too small but have moved on to bigger and better - thanks Nick! As you can see from the pics of the parts above, the quality is quite astounding when you get everything dialed in.

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    is there a particular reason for the two steper drives- other than the low parts count? are they tensioned w/spring or spring plate or screws? this is certainly an exciting step in the evolution of our machines ! I have some left over parts from my foam cutter- transformer, wire, bow etc.. these might be reborn into an extruder. Awesome.
    regards,
    Gadget
    model A, Joes Hybrid 4x4 alu., Taig Micro mill
    Probotix 4x----- 5axis board---Rockcliff 4x
    Bobcad/Bobart-cam Pro V25/26, ,Spider Printer for 3D !

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    Quote Originally Posted by gadget47 View Post
    is there a particular reason for the two steper drives- other than the low parts count? are they tensioned w/spring or spring plate or screws? this is certainly an exciting step in the evolution of our machines ! I have some left over parts from my foam cutter- transformer, wire, bow etc.. these might be reborn into an extruder. Awesome.
    There are a couple of reasons for the DualDrive having 2 steppers. The first is driving force - pure and simple. We are driving the filament from both sides which means you can have less compression force on the filament. This leads to less deformation of the filament(not getting squished to an oval shape) and allows for a stronger "push" which translates to less jamming. Actually, jamming is almost non-existent. This DualDrive setup is strong enough that it can actually buckle the filament before it skips steps. The second reason was to simplify the parts count as you mentioned. These are small Nema 14 motors so they fit nicely into a fairly small package.

    The two motors are adjustable by the fact that there are only 2 mounting screws - one acts as a pivot point, and the other goes through a slot. You simply get one motor lined up, put in some filament and swing your other motor into position against the filament - tight but not too tight. Once it is set you can forget about it as the rollers will now be in a good position to grab the filament next time you load it.

    Your left over foam cutting supplies may come in handy very soon - don't throw them out!

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    can i have it now?
    I have to say, I've been avoiding this part of the forum because of how I am with my "Obsessive desire to make things"- as my wife will swear to- and now Im hooked.
    are we there yet?!
    regards,
    Gadget
    model A, Joes Hybrid 4x4 alu., Taig Micro mill
    Probotix 4x----- 5axis board---Rockcliff 4x
    Bobcad/Bobart-cam Pro V25/26, ,Spider Printer for 3D !

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    Quote Originally Posted by gadget47 View Post
    can i have it now?
    I have to say, I've been avoiding this part of the forum because of how I am with my "Obsessive desire to make things"- as my wife will swear to- and now Im hooked.
    are we there yet?!



    Bob
    I can honestly say , which ever way you can /make / buy / borrow / steal / a plastic extruder, I highly recommend you have one in your bag of tools just think of it like just another attachment / tool for one of your cnc routers, I am finding more practical uses for mine everyday, it’s sooo addictive, I'm hoping the novelty will wear off soon, but right now I can’t stop printing stuff, it’s crazy,

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    Quote Originally Posted by gadget47 View Post
    can i have it now?
    I have to say, I've been avoiding this part of the forum because of how I am with my "Obsessive desire to make things"- as my wife will swear to- and now Im hooked.
    are we there yet?!
    We're testing, optimizing, and drawing... Good things come to those who wait! Hang tight. Nick's like a kid in a candy store! Gotta love it.
    Last edited by fabitrabbit; 04-26-2012 at 09:59 PM.

  28. #28
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    I think I can gather the inner strength required to wait...................
    ...............................................
    ...........................................
    ........................................
    .....................................
    ...................................
    .................................
    ...............................
    see, I'm doing it
    regards,
    Gadget
    model A, Joes Hybrid 4x4 alu., Taig Micro mill
    Probotix 4x----- 5axis board---Rockcliff 4x
    Bobcad/Bobart-cam Pro V25/26, ,Spider Printer for 3D !

  29. #29
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    Hi guys -
    Very exciting thread you've got going here. I've got a home-brew 3 axis router running Mach3 using a Geckodrive G540. Trouble is, my X-axis has two stepper motors I've slaved between X and A... Perhaps designed myself into a corner?
    Also, wondering how you're getting Mach3 to play nice. Are you using A-axis for the extruder? or somehow tweaking Mach to accept a 5th axis? (or a sixth as sir rockcliff outlines above)
    Interested in those CAD files guys! or if your selling extruder units, let us know!
    Watching with interest.
    Cheers
    Giffster from OZ.

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    Quote Originally Posted by giffster View Post
    Hi guys -
    Very exciting thread you've got going here. I've got a home-brew 3 axis router running Mach3 using a Geckodrive G540. Trouble is, my X-axis has two stepper motors I've slaved between X and A... Perhaps designed myself into a corner?
    Also, wondering how you're getting Mach3 to play nice. Are you using A-axis for the extruder? or somehow tweaking Mach to accept a 5th axis? (or a sixth as sir rockcliff outlines above)
    Interested in those CAD files guys! or if your selling extruder units, let us know!
    Watching with interest.
    Cheers
    Giffster from OZ.


    We run a similar “slaved axis” setup on our machines too, what we did was created a B axis in Mach3 ( ports and pins / motor outputs) then moved the step and direction pin assignments from A to the newly created B axis, we then re-arranged the slave drive letter assignments in Mach3 so we now run Y-slaved to B ( or in your case it would be X slaved to B) this freed up the A axis for the extruder,

    basicly just some Mach3 config changes, All your current wiring to your 4 motors is untouched and remains the same,

    The main reason for using letter A axis was only because the Mach3 screen MPG ( tab key ) has some nice arrow keys to jog the A axis, which is important to manually feed filament to the extruder and purge plastic when needed with just a click of the mouse.


    Just as we have done with our 4 axis drivers, (using all 4 axis’s for motion) you would need to add an extra driver board for the 5th axis for the extruder motors, wire it to any two spare outputs of G540 and assign those pin outputs in Mach3 as axis A, we selected these little pololu driver boards ( very cheap) and with 2 amp out they are almost overkill for the extruder, but almost any step and direction single axis board would be fine as long as it matched the current ratings of the extruder motors,


    it’s probably easier to actually do it, then try to explain it, hopefully that made sense,

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    I'm hoping to finish up the drawings tonight guys. My apologies for the delay. The documentation will follow but for now there's plenty of info right here in this thread for the electrical side of things. Thanks for being patient...

    Edit: I worked on them until 1am this morning but not quite there yet.
    Last edited by fabitrabbit; 05-04-2012 at 08:29 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rockcliff View Post
    We run a similar ďslaved axisĒ setup on our machines too, what we did was created a B axis in Mach3 ( ports and pins / motor outputs) then moved the step and direction pin assignments from A to the newly created B axis, we then re-arranged the slave drive letter assignments in Mach3 so we now run Y-slaved to B ( or in your case it would be X slaved to B) this freed up the A axis for the extruder,

    basicly just some Mach3 config changes, All your current wiring to your 4 motors is untouched and remains the same,

    The main reason for using letter A axis was only because the Mach3 screen MPG ( tab key ) has some nice arrow keys to jog the A axis, which is important to manually feed filament to the extruder and purge plastic when needed with just a click of the mouse.


    Just as we have done with our 4 axis drivers, (using all 4 axisís for motion) you would need to add an extra driver board for the 5th axis for the extruder motors, wire it to any two spare outputs of G540 and assign those pin outputs in Mach3 as axis A, we selected these little pololu driver boards ( very cheap) and with 2 amp out they are almost overkill for the extruder, but almost any step and direction single axis board would be fine as long as it matched the current ratings of the extruder motors,


    itís probably easier to actually do it, then try to explain it, hopefully that made sense,
    Thanks Rockliff.
    After doing some further reading, yes - it seems quite simple. Unfortunately, The G540 is limited to 4-axis (unlike Mach3's 6, as I've discovered). cheers for tolerating a question relating to a competitor's hardware.
    Watching with interest guys.
    Giffster

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by giffster View Post
    Thanks Rockliff.
    After doing some further reading, yes - it seems quite simple. Unfortunately, The G540 is limited to 4-axis (unlike Mach3's 6, as I've discovered). cheers for tolerating a question relating to a competitor's hardware.
    Watching with interest guys.
    Giffster
    It should still be no problem for you giffster... The Rockcliff board only has 4 stepper drivers too. The G540 should have some available outputs still open for you though - forget the actual stepper driver chips. What you need to do is purchase a separate individual stepper driver board like the polulu http://www.pololu.com/catalog/product/1182 and hook it directly to one of the outputs on your G540, THEN mach will take care of the rest. You are in essence "adding" a 5th axis to your G540 - you're just going to control it as a 4th axis through Mach.

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    I actually own, and have installed many gecko drives, incuding gecko servo drives, I have no issues with answering questions, gecko drives are great. as fabitrabbit says it is indeed possible to add an extra axis on the G540, to be more specific you can use terminal pins 5 and 6 which are outputs on the g540, or re-directed before they enter the the driver, any 2 un-used Parrallel port outputs will do.

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    Default Drawings!

    Finally...

    These drawings are ready. There will be a "read-me" file coming too. Please post pics of your build and modifications if you make any. Don't forget KISSlicer. Good Luck and Happy Printing!
    Attached Files Attached Files

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    Anybody building yet?

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    This is a project that is probably a month or two away for me, but a little more information would be much appreciated before I start collecting parts.

    1. Drawings indicate hobbed pulleys. Did you make these? Material? Are any dimensions available, or helpful hints on how you went about hobbing the groove?

    2. Is there a recommended minimum stepper motor torque?

    3. How many different hot ends have you tried? The one in the drawings is different than the one in the photos above, and the one in the earliest photos looks different yet. Any insights on what has worked best? Any experience with how the homebuilt ones you have been using compare to something like a J-head?

    It is a bit unclear exactly what size nozzle orifice was used to make the parts shown. Are you saying it was .3mm? Any photos of parts made with the .15mm?

    Thanks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by stanley1999 View Post
    This is a project that is probably a month or two away for me, but a little more information would be much appreciated before I start collecting parts.

    1. Drawings indicate hobbed pulleys. Did you make these? Material? Are any dimensions available, or helpful hints on how you went about hobbing the groove?

    2. Is there a recommended minimum stepper motor torque?

    3. How many different hot ends have you tried? The one in the drawings is different than the one in the photos above, and the one in the earliest photos looks different yet. Any insights on what has worked best? Any experience with how the homebuilt ones you have been using compare to something like a J-head?

    It is a bit unclear exactly what size nozzle orifice was used to make the parts shown. Are you saying it was .3mm? Any photos of parts made with the .15mm?

    Thanks.
    The hobbed pulleys were made from 1/2" aluminum bar stock. A small groove was turned and then hobbed with a tap and hand drill - the same way the reprap folks are hobbing the bolt for their extruders(just search hobbed bolt reprap). A lathe was used here for the turning. They also have a set screw to tighten to the motor shaft. The dimensions can vary depending on your stepper shaft size but there is no magic here - just two steppers driving the filament between them. Sizes can change as long as your mach settings are set up properly for whatever size you make. Makerbot also sells these but I'm not sure what the internal hole diameter is.

    The steppers we used are small Nema 14s and are not marked with oz/in. Two of them together provides plenty of torque though.

    Both types of hot ends shown here work. We tried probably 10 different ways to do it but only show these two because they work. We even tried the resistor in the aluminum block like Makerbot uses but found that these two hot ends heated up faster and were consistent. Because we avoided the Arduino and Ramps boards, you can actually play with your heat while a part is being printed to optimize your results. Once you find your sweet spot you're all set. With programmable heat you have to make a new program just to change the heat. Don't get me wrong, programmable heat is good but the dimmer/transformer setup is simpler to build, and to set up for proper heat at the tip. We never tried a j-head, all I can tell you is that this Ni-chrome setup works and it works well.

    The nozzle used for those yellow parts was roughly 0.25mm with a layer height of 0.15mm I believe - please correct me if I'm wrong Nick.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gadget47 View Post
    is there a particular reason for the two steper drives- other than the low parts count? are they tensioned w/spring or spring plate or screws? this is certainly an exciting step in the evolution of our machines ! I have some left over parts from my foam cutter- transformer, wire, bow etc.. these might be reborn into an extruder. Awesome.

    Since we went against the “normal” way of making a plastic extruder
    Here’s why a dual drive design, and why no reduction




    DualDrive ?
    if you look at most of the 3D printer extruders designs other people have built, most all of them use one stepper motor, a reduction gear / or some type of planetary reduction, driving only one grooved hub or textured hub, the driven hub applies force to the filament that pushes against one flat idler bearing, , and most of the issues I have heard of is jamming, and it makes sense, because when you drive only one grooved hub against a flat bearing, applying more pressure, actually makes is worst, creating a dent or a flat spot in the filament, on the idler side of the filament, there is absolutely no question a single driven arrangement works, and if setup correctly it’s acceptable, I just don’t believe it works as well, as a dual drive setup.


    I learned the hard way, on a machine I designed and built many years ago, the machine was to feed 1/2 dia. steel rod, into 3 adjustable rollers, making a spring spiral type shape, the first prototype I built only had one drive wheel, , no mater how much force I applied with the single driven wheel against the idler, it did not get enough grip of steel rod, until I powered both drive wheels,

    in the case of the extruder, I know we are only talking about small diameter Plastic filament, but I do believe the same situation exists in these plastic extruders A lot of applications that drive any type of wire, always power both drive wheels ( one common example being the wire feeder on a Mig Welder )



    No reduction ?
    This extruder uses direct drive right to filament, we can clearly see that two very small motors is enough to extrude 1.75mm quite well, I believe that too much torque as compared to grip of the filament can be a bad thing in this case, when I am warming up the nozzle to get ready to print I will often jog the extruder to see when plastic starts flowing out, when the nozzle is still cold the motors will skip steps, but with enough grip on the filament, the grooved hubs cannot strip the filament,
    So it’s more important to have 100 percent grip of the filament, and enough torque to drive, but not more then needed to strip, we test this by simply holding the filament tight, and jogging the extruder, you should be able to stall the motor, without any slippage of the hubs against the filament.

    So in reality we think we designed the “normal” way of making a plastic filament extruder

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    Quote Originally Posted by fabitrabbit View Post
    Anybody building yet?
    finshing the g-code for the blocks as we speak, should have 3/4 done by next week-end. I'll take some pics of the build
    regards,
    Gadget
    model A, Joes Hybrid 4x4 alu., Taig Micro mill
    Probotix 4x----- 5axis board---Rockcliff 4x
    Bobcad/Bobart-cam Pro V25/26, ,Spider Printer for 3D !

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    Quote Originally Posted by gadget47 View Post
    finshing the g-code for the blocks as we speak, should have 3/4 done by next week-end. I'll take some pics of the build
    Excellent! Can't wait to see an d hear your results. Don't get down if it doesn't work right away - one thing we have found is that it takes a LOT of fiddling with parameters to get parts. Patience and persistence pays off here though.

    Keep us posted.

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    Thanks for the added info on the hobbed pulleys. The larger diameter makes much more sense than the small diameter hobbed bolt of other designs. The larger diameter will put more teeth in partial contact with the filament. The direct drive makes sense as well. Since stepper torque drops off quickly with increase in rpm, there shouldn't be a need for gear reduction as long as you can get adequate feed resolution.

    Just out of curiosity, is that the entirety of your hot-end temperature control? A transformer and dimmer switch? No method of monitoring/controlling temperature with a microprocessor to keep it stable? How much adjusting of the dimmer do you need to do during a print?

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    Quote Originally Posted by stanley1999 View Post
    Thanks for the added info on the hobbed pulleys. The larger diameter makes much more sense than the small diameter hobbed bolt of other designs. The larger diameter will put more teeth in partial contact with the filament. The direct drive makes sense as well. Since stepper torque drops off quickly with increase in rpm, there shouldn't be a need for gear reduction as long as you can get adequate feed resolution.

    Just out of curiosity, is that the entirety of your hot-end temperature control? A transformer and dimmer switch? No method of monitoring/controlling temperature with a microprocessor to keep it stable? How much adjusting of the dimmer do you need to do during a print?
    I was actually skeptical about not using any reduction, for the same reasons , no torque, and not enough resolution, we are feeding so slow, the motors have enough, we are also running these drivers at 1/16 step which is approx. 0.0004" of feed per step, not that there is anything wrong with using reduction, as long as the grip of the filament is stronger then the torque, so you don't strip the filament,


    Yes, just an AC transformer and a dimmer, it's extremely stable, and accurate because, there's no spike in temperature, as you would have running an on/off type thermocouple, and controller.

    Once I set the dimmer to where I want, I do not adjust it anymore, and leave it alone during printing, it plugs into my relay recepticale for my router, so it turns off after the print is finished with an M30

    http://www.jacobs-online.biz/power_supply_design.htm
    http://www.jacobs-online.biz/nichrome/NichromeCalc.html

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    Nice design!

    Couple of questions...

    1. What are the oval slots for on top of the stepper mount (locking down the hobbed pulleys?)

    2. Do you have a BOM yet?

    3. Anymore info on this hot end listed in the prints? (Insulator guide tube, brass barrel) Or are you going to sell these? If so I'd be interested.

    Thanks!

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    Quote Originally Posted by vtx1029 View Post
    Nice design!

    Couple of questions...

    1. What are the oval slots for on top of the stepper mount (locking down the hobbed pulleys?)

    2. Do you have a BOM yet?

    3. Anymore info on this hot end listed in the prints? (Insulator guide tube, brass barrel) Or are you going to sell these? If so I'd be interested.

    Thanks!

    Yes, the oval slots are for just that.

    Nick is working on a BOM but it's not ready yet. The basics are all listed here already though.

    The hot end is just a 6mm brass barrel heated with Ni-chrome wire. It is then screwed into a PTFE cylinder to cold cap it. The drawings show how it all goes together.

    I am currently working on a kit to sell. It will probably be a couple of weeks yet as I'm still talking with potential suppliers for parts.

    Subscribe to this thread for future updates.

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    Yes, just an AC transformer and a dimmer, it's extremely stable, and accurate because, there's no spike in temperature, as you would have running an on/off type thermocouple, and controller.
    Hmm, this makes some sense, and I have read some posts about people having wide temperature swings while using an arduino for control. Thanks for the links, good info there. I was actually planning on using a resistor for the hot end rather than winding my own nichrome. Wondering if the simple transformer/dimmer could be used to power that as well?

    Not sure if you have seen this, but I found this posting below around the same time as I found the one in this forum. Striking similarity in concept. Sounds like he was having problems at high feedrates, but it is unclear if that is due to the drive design or to not being able to melt the filament fast enough.
    http://forum.ultimaker.com/viewtopic.php?t=510&p=2492

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    Quote Originally Posted by stanley1999 View Post
    Hmm, this makes some sense, and I have read some posts about people having wide temperature swings while using an arduino for control. Thanks for the links, good info there. I was actually planning on using a resistor for the hot end rather than winding my own nichrome. Wondering if the simple transformer/dimmer could be used to power that as well?

    Not sure if you have seen this, but I found this posting below around the same time as I found the one in this forum. Striking similarity in concept. Sounds like he was having problems at high feedrates, but it is unclear if that is due to the drive design or to not being able to melt the filament fast enough.
    http://forum.ultimaker.com/viewtopic.php?t=510&p=2492
    It should work with a resistor too - just start from off and come up slowly. You'll know if you blow the resistor as you will hear a "pop" - I speak from experience here... I "popped" the only one I had and then switched to Ni-ch wire. I also switched to a lower voltage and current transformer as I burned out a few pieces of wire too. Then I EVEN burned out a transformer...
    Now it works well though.

    I'm fiddling with a heated build plate now too. So far it is working pretty good but I need to put it through a few longer tests to be sure nothing "pops". We'll keep you posted.

    I took a look at the "Dobble MK6" design and you are correct, it IS strikingly similar. My first time seeing it... honestly! Kind of cool to see somebody else's take on the same idea. I'm not surprised by it as it's a fairly logical evolutionary step for these extruders. Two drive pulleys are better than one we always say! I don't know what feedrates he was having problems with but I was printing at 25mm/s last night with decent results. My machine was dancing a bit though - I have a 5 foot wide gantry that weighs almost 100lbs!

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    Quote Originally Posted by stanley1999 View Post

    Not sure if you have seen this, but I found this posting below around the same time as I found the one in this forum. Striking similarity in concept. Sounds like he was having problems at high feedrates, but it is unclear if that is due to the drive design or to not being able to melt the filament fast enough.

    it's hard to say for certain, because I don't see any real photos of his extruder, but I would assume he is having heat issues, when you finish your hot end and nozzle, do a test, heat it up and push some filament thru just by hand, you will see it takes very little force to get it to go thru the nozzle

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    Ok I have a couple of questions for RC & FR. What types of plastic filament are available? In your earlier post you mention ABS. The reason I ask is I plan on using your printer head to make proto type modeling parts for model railroading. Not having a printed part to look at and touch. What kind of quality is being produced by your printer head.

    Chuck

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    Quote Originally Posted by cncrr View Post
    Ok I have a couple of questions for RC & FR. What types of plastic filament are available? In your earlier post you mention ABS. The reason I ask is I plan on using your printer head to make proto type modeling parts for model railroading. Not having a printed part to look at and touch. What kind of quality is being produced by your printer head.

    Chuck

    To my knowledge I believe the two common filaments you can easily purchase is ABS and PLA
    it is possible to use different plastics because the guys who invented Fused Deposition Modeling (FDM) technology, offer different plastics, but you would have to buy their machine to get it http://www.stratasys.com/ their low end printer is $10K and a spool of filament is $300

    So currently unless we are going to extrude our own filament, we are stuck with ABS or PLA

    Quality is a difficult thing to rate, size wise I would say plus or minus 0.010”

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    Quote Originally Posted by cncrr View Post
    Ok I have a couple of questions for RC & FR. What types of plastic filament are available? In your earlier post you mention ABS. The reason I ask is I plan on using your printer head to make proto type modeling parts for model railroading. Not having a printed part to look at and touch. What kind of quality is being produced by your printer head.

    Chuck
    Model railroad parts will definitely be a good test for this extruder. Some very small details could get lost just due to layer heights and nozzle diameter. The extruder itself will push resin fast or slow so flow has not been an issue. If your cnc router moves nice and accurately now you should be able to achieve some impressive results with some time spent tweaking your slicing parameters.

    I have owned two 3D printers(professional quality machines) in the past and can honestly say that I'm having more fun with this extruder. These parts are durable enough to be used for more than prototype purposes and the build material is cheap enough that you can afford to play around. My biggest problem lately has been getting enough time to play with it some more!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spidey4fun View Post
    Brilliant build thread. I'm really hoping to do this to my home built cnc machine. I've a g540 running my x,y,z axis and a 4 axis xylotex controller on a 2nd parallel port for a rotary axis. This leave me 3 spare axis controllers. Again, brilliant work guys.

    Brad.
    Thanks kindly on behalf of both of us Brad! It's a lot of fun and it's very cool to see the interest. Good luck with your build!

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    Thanks Darrin, I might hang off attempting to source the parts myself if you guys are thinking of doing kits. One thing I have been wondering is how do you determine the feed rate for the plastic Vs movement of the printer head to attain the correct thinkness of plastic? I think that made sense.

    Brad.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spidey4fun View Post
    Thanks Darrin, I might hang off attempting to source the parts myself if you guys are thinking of doing kits. One thing I have been wondering is how do you determine the feed rate for the plastic Vs movement of the printer head to attain the correct thinkness of plastic? I think that made sense.

    Brad.
    Yes, that made sense. No worries, KISSlicer takes care of ramping the extruder movements up and down based on machine movements. Once you do your initial tweaking it all plays like a symphony.

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    Default Status of kits

    I know some folks are interested in kits so I just want to give you an update of where this is at.

    I have redesigned the main body of the extruder just to ease some manufacturing issues so the kit extruder will look a bit different but will function in the exact same manner.

    I am also currently meeting with different suppliers to try to get some of the parts made locally, in volumes. I want to try to do this as locally as possible so tight control over quality can be maintained - "cheaper" is not always better, or consistent.

    More news later...

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    Quote Originally Posted by fabitrabbit View Post
    Anybody building yet?
    A broken arm has suspended all projects for now, but still watching with interest guys.
    Giffster

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    I dont know how I missed this post..

    Great work guys ! I have been a big fan of 3D printing for the last year or so. I have a RepRap Prusa I built, and thats what lead me into building a CNC..

    This could be on my "bucketlist" for things to do with my CNC when its done.

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    Default 2 Motors 1 Axis Driver in Gecko G540

    Very interesting, this will also be my altenative route to convert my current cnc machine to 3D Printer.

    Im using Gecko G540 Stepper Driver with 48V 7A Power Supply. My 4 stepper motors are all 387 oz-in rated 50V 3.5A. I can use my A Axis for my extruder but the motor attached is 387 oz-in stepper motor. Can I attach 2 pcs. Nema 17 67 oz-in Stepper Motors 50V 1.68A by replacing 387 stepper motor connecting to my Gecko G540 Stepper Driver system?

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    Quote Originally Posted by guy2b1 View Post
    Very interesting, this will also be my altenative route to convert my current cnc machine to 3D Printer.

    Im using Gecko G540 Stepper Driver with 48V 7A Power Supply. My 4 stepper motors are all 387 oz-in rated 50V 3.5A. I can use my A Axis for my extruder but the motor attached is 387 oz-in stepper motor. Can I attach 2 pcs. Nema 17 67 oz-in Stepper Motors 50V 1.68A by replacing 387 stepper motor connecting to my Gecko G540 Stepper Driver system?

    As mentioned in an earlier post the answer is YES, 2 motors can be wired to a single driver axis, as long as you follow the guidelines for current and wiring I posted above for the pololu board, the G540 would use the same wiring, by joining both motor coils in series.


    As for your motor choice, the specs of the current is just within the G540 specs, (1.68A x 2 = a total of 3.36A) but the voltage of your motors seem high at 50v, are you sure that they are 50v ?, normally stepper motors are much lower, you might want to select different motors? and calculate the correct V and A for the G540


    I get this question a lot about wiring 2 motors to one driver, and if you ask 10 people, you will get 10 different answers, ( I have heard it all, some say it cannot be done, it doesn’t work, it won’t work well, it will fry your drive, the motors won’t run fast, not recommended,)

    it's just not true, you can wire 2 motors to almost any driver, rockcliff, xylotex, probotix, gecko, etc.


    Here is my G540 running 2 nema 17 motors from a single axis, it runs great,!!! see video http://youtu.be/gFr9AL5QrVw

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    Thank you, the video helps a lot but im not sure about the specs of motors I have but here are the details below:

    Nema 17 62 oz-in stepper motor, suggested drivers are the Gecko G251, G540 or Pololu A4983 or can be run from a multitude of drivers avaliable on the market.

    Specifications
    Model Number: 17H185H-04B
    Size: Nema 17
    Phase: 2 Phase
    Step Angle: 1.8 Degrees
    Voltage: 2.77V (55V Max)
    Current: 1.68A
    Resistance: 1.68ohm
    Inductance: 3.0mH
    Holding Torque: 62 Oz-in
    Dual Shaft (22mm long main shaft, 10mm long secondary shaft)
    Bipolar 4 Wire

    Can I use these for my current Gecko G540 driver and power supply by following your wiring diagram? So I can convert my cnc to 3d printer extruder like yours.

    I have basic knowledge in wiring and electronics, but when it comes to electrical formulas and computation, power supply, voltage ampere requirements etc. I am totally newbie but I am very interested to learn

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    Default watching with interest

    Hi guys, had to sign up to this forum after reading through what you are doing, fantastic idea, will definately be interested in a kit when its ready, very novice to cnc routing and 3d printing but quick learner i hope, have picked up an old elu 860 router that has the version 1.6c programmer, havent used it yet as was planning on uprating the software/hardware so i can use an industry standard cad/cam package (will have to learn that too!) i like the look of alibre design for this as it looks simple to use and easy to convert 2d to 3d drawings, but will greatfully accept any other options suggested.
    What i really need to do is do it once so all parts talk together (new to gcode too so not planning on learning that aswell at the mo!!)
    To top it all i have also just bought a plasma cutter with machine head as was planning on having a router table/plasma table in one before i got extremely interested in 3D printing last week - brain gone into overdrive with what i want to make/prototype.
    Has anyone considered raising and lowering their bed to increase the Z axis? as my table sits about 1m off the floor and i only have 140mm on the axis. If it went on ball screws and became a 4th axis could you move this axis up and down instead of the Z axis??? huge prototyping possibilities.
    All info greatly received cheers Rob
    Princey

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    Quote Originally Posted by princey View Post
    Has anyone considered raising and lowering their bed to increase the Z axis? as my table sits about 1m off the floor and i only have 140mm on the axis. If it went on ball screws and became a 4th axis could you move this axis up and down instead of the Z axis??? huge prototyping possibilities.
    All info greatly received cheers Rob


    Theoretically this could work. Very theoretically. You would be bound up with weight issues I believe. Also, your block of material to cut had better be pretty light too. The 3d printers work like this because there is very little weight and no cutting force involved.

    Unless you plan on using a monster stepper motor, or several, to drive the table up and down, stick to moving the router and keeping the material in one place. You will be a much happier camper in the end...

    A table that adjusts up and down is sweet though! You could always put a long z axis on the gantry and have a table that adjusts for doing large carves. Keep in mind that leverage comes into play here stress-wise when you "hang" the router way down below the gantry.
    Last edited by fabitrabbit; 06-15-2012 at 03:50 PM.

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    Default Kits

    Guys,
    Just found the forum thru joescnc forum. This is exactly what I'm looking for to add to my almost complete 4'x4' CNC Router. I'm also running the G540. Any luck on the kits? Any idea of costs?

    Thanks guys! Great work!
    Jeff
    Last edited by jammoney; 06-15-2012 at 07:15 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by guy2b1 View Post
    Thank you, the video helps a lot but im not sure about the specs of motors I have but here are the details below:

    Nema 17 62 oz-in stepper motor, suggested drivers are the Gecko G251, G540 or Pololu A4983 or can be run from a multitude of drivers avaliable on the market.

    Specifications
    Model Number: 17H185H-04B
    Size: Nema 17
    Phase: 2 Phase
    Step Angle: 1.8 Degrees
    Voltage: 2.77V (55V Max)
    Current: 1.68A
    Resistance: 1.68ohm
    Inductance: 3.0mH
    Holding Torque: 62 Oz-in
    Dual Shaft (22mm long main shaft, 10mm long secondary shaft)
    Bipolar 4 Wire

    Can I use these for my current Gecko G540 driver and power supply by following your wiring diagram? So I can convert my cnc to 3d printer extruder like yours.

    I have basic knowledge in wiring and electronics, but when it comes to electrical formulas and computation, power supply, voltage ampere requirements etc. I am totally newbie but I am very interested to learn

    The nema 17's that I used for my test, are only 0.8A so combined they are just over 1.5A

    The motors you have seem very high in amperage for nema 17, combined together are just below the max amps of the g540, I believe they would work, but you need to take the normal precautions like (heat sinking the driver) if you do try it, start with a lower amp setting like 2A or less

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    Quote Originally Posted by rockcliff View Post
    The nema 17's that I used for my test, are only 0.8A so combined they are just over 1.5A
    They are actually Nema 14s that we used for the prototype. Nema 17s should work too though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fabitrabbit View Post
    They are actually Nema 14s that we used for the prototype. Nema 17s should work too though.

    Sorry for the confusion........
    it was this test I did with the Gecko G540 see my video http://youtu.be/gFr9AL5QrVw which I used nema 17's

    and yes the 3d printer extruder is using nema 14's

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    Thanks guys, I hope your kits are available soon. Definitely will wait for your kits when ready while I make some tests with my existing Nema 17s motors and drivers

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    Default Heater parameters

    I find this forum very fascinating and intend to fit a FDM unit to my router.

    Rockcliff - please give a few more details regarding the heating element ie wire diameter, length and wattage and electrical parameters. I have a accurate industrial PID temperature controller and fancy fitting a fast response 0.005" diameter K thermocouple via a solid state relay.

    Cannot wait for news of the drive/fuser kit. Thanks

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    Quote Originally Posted by Advall View Post
    I find this forum very fascinating and intend to fit a FDM unit to my router.

    Rockcliff - please give a few more details regarding the heating element ie wire diameter, length and wattage and electrical parameters. I have a accurate industrial PID temperature controller and fancy fitting a fast response 0.005" diameter K thermocouple via a solid state relay.

    Cannot wait for news of the drive/fuser kit. Thanks
    Hi
    The nichrome wire I have been using is 0.011" diameter (just stuff I have laying around here)
    I do not know what the length is, I just wrap it around the nozzle, 5 to 8 turns? the dimmer is then adjusted to where the plastic starts melting,

    if your going to use a temp. controller I do understand your need to find exact parameters, the dimmer eliminates the need for it, so I just do not have the data you will need, take a look at the jacob nichrome power calculator

  70. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockcliff View Post
    Hi
    The nichrome wire I have been using is 0.011" diameter (just stuff I have laying around here)
    I do not know what the length is, I just wrap it around the nozzle, 5 to 8 turns? the dimmer is then adjusted to where the plastic starts melting,

    if your going to use a temp. controller I do understand your need to find exact parameters, the dimmer eliminates the need for it, so I just do not have the data you will need, take a look at the jacob nichrome power calculator
    G'day Rockcliff. Thanks for that. I have played with some 0.018" dia wire that i have and have aimed for 40watts as that seems to be the power that commercial machines specify. 6.5 turns is about 1.5 Ohms so 7 volts will draw 5.8 Amps and will generate 40 Watts. I will advise the outcome.

  71. #71
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    Any updates on the kits?

  72. #72
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    I received some of the first parts for the kits late last week. More to come soon hopefully.

    Right now, cost is looking like it will be around $250. This will include the extruder and the electrical supplies to run the hot end. I'm not going to include the stepper driver as some folks have a spare axis available. For those who don't you can order a polulu board - they are very economical.

    That's it for now...

  73. #73
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    Just a suggestion.. Start a log of those people interested so you gauge how many you'll need to make.

    1. Brad.
    2.
    3.



    Cheers
    Brad.

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    2. Jeff

    Interested in one of your kits.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fabitrabbit View Post
    Finally...

    These drawings are ready. There will be a "read-me" file coming too. Please post pics of your build and modifications if you make any. Don't forget KISSlicer. Good Luck and Happy Printing!
    Can you please post a 3D file for the body as i would like to produce one on my CNC router. Many Thanks

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    Quote Originally Posted by Advall View Post
    Can you please post a 3D file for the body as i would like to produce one on my CNC router. Many Thanks
    That would take the fun out of it!

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    Quote Originally Posted by fabitrabbit View Post
    That would take the fun out of it!
    No problem - no big deal - I will make a plan.

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    I have been generating g codes out of Kisslicer from stl files. The 4th axis for the filament feeder in Mach 3 does run as only X Y and Y co-ordinates are present in the g code. Any ideas what i am doing wrong? Many thanks.

  79. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Advall View Post
    I have been generating g codes out of Kisslicer from stl files. The 4th axis for the filament feeder in Mach 3 does run as only X Y and Y co-ordinates are present in the g code. Any ideas what i am doing wrong? Many thanks.
    In Kisslicer, go into preferences, click on the "g-code" tab, then set the "firmware type" to "5D - absolute E". Then, click the "extruders" tab and make sure your extruder 1 axis is set to letter "A".

    This should give you "A" axis outputs in your g-code which can then be assigned to your 4th axis in Mach.

    I hope that solves your issue - if not post again and we'll try to get you going somehow.

  80. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by fabitrabbit View Post
    In Kisslicer, go into preferences, click on the "g-code" tab, then set the "firmware type" to "5D - absolute E". Then, click the "extruders" tab and make sure your extruder 1 axis is set to letter "A".

    This should give you "A" axis outputs in your g-code which can then be assigned to your 4th axis in Mach.

    I hope that solves your issue - if not post again and we'll try to get you going somehow.
    Great - that works fine in Mach3 - very many thanks. Now i will have to learn how to tune that axis.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fabitrabbit View Post
    That would take the fun out of it!
    I made my drive head from 50 x 100 x 3 Aluminium tube making one drive fixed and the other laterally adjustable. Very simple. The heater is an aluminium block incorporating two wire wound ceramic resistors.

    I am awaiting the filament to arrive for first trials. Hope it works

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    Quote Originally Posted by Advall View Post
    I made my drive head from 50 x 100 x 3 Aluminium tube making one drive fixed and the other laterally adjustable. Very simple. The heater is an aluminium block incorporating two wire wound ceramic resistors.

    I am awaiting the filament to arrive for first trials. Hope it works
    AWESOME! Post a pic if you can!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Advall View Post
    Great - that works fine in Mach3 - very many thanks. Now i will have to learn how to tune that axis.
    Did you get that axis tuned in? It took me awhile to get it right...

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    Quote Originally Posted by fabitrabbit View Post
    Did you get that axis tuned in? It took me awhile to get it right...
    I dialed in the obvious Kisslicer parameters ie filament diameter, mm/rev. nozzel diameter etc and the motors were turning at what seems a reasonable speed. But as I have no filament at present I do not know how well tuned or otherwise the set-up may be.

    Can you advise your tuning difficulties and how you overcame them?

    For interest I am importing my filament from a Hong Kong supplier - PLA and ABS 1.70 and 2.90 mm diameter. Same base price!! 7 x 1.5Kg mixed reels will land here in Australia for about US$ 17.50/Kg

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    Quote Originally Posted by fabitrabbit View Post
    AWESOME! Post a pic if you can!
    The first pic shows the adjustable side as milled. The fixed side has a circular hole and no adjustment slots. The rear of the assembly is a tongue sized to fill the ID of the tube folded up from the rear and epoxied to the main frame. This is attached to the mounting plate with 2 interior bolts. Milled on my CNC router

    The second and third pics are general arrangements showing the PTFE tube and insulating washers and heater block. The large holes are to gain acess to the motor mounting screws. Only 2 motor bolts used on the adjustable motor

    The last pic show the heater block (not connected) It uses 2 x 12 Ohm wirewound ceramic resistors wired in parallel powered by a 12.8 Volt supply.

    The heater is controlled by a PID digital temperature controller and a solid state relay. Simple Off/On control gives temperature range of +1/-2 degrees C at 200 deg C in a static test. Using PID would improve this.

    I found the 12 Volt fan was an overkill so I am driving it at 3.5 Volts derived from a 12 v DC source and a LED lamp dimmer .This is adequate to keep the frame cool.
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    Awesome improvisation Advall! That looks great.

    Motor tuning took me a bit because it was putting out too much material until I finally realized that the "minimum rpm" for the extruder was too high. This was giving me grief because the machine was just running too fast and I couldn't slow it down. I think it was set at 3 or something, then I put it back to .1 (because a stepper has no minimum rpm) and that fixed everything. My x and y were now able to be controlled, speed wise.

    You will find that when you are actually printing, it will turn very slowly, not like the geared extruder designs that are out there.

    It takes a bit of fiddling but that's just part of the fun! I can't wait to see what you print.

  87. #87
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    Default starting the build....

    Awesome Advall, I'm following your lead.
    here are some pics of my first attempt to make the extruder. This is delrin with specs as per the pdf file here. I only did the left side so far. I still have to machine the right, top and bottom.
    I started to setup the cutpath for the hobbed drives- I could easily do them on the lathe by hand but wanted to try to make them on the 4th axis attachement- I'll keep you posted either way I do them.
    sorry I haven't been able to start this project till now- lots of lifes curveballs.
    more to follow....
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    regards,
    Gadget
    model A, Joes Hybrid 4x4 alu., Taig Micro mill
    Probotix 4x----- 5axis board---Rockcliff 4x
    Bobcad/Bobart-cam Pro V25/26, ,Spider Printer for 3D !

  88. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by fabitrabbit View Post
    Awesome improvisation Advall! That looks great.

    Motor tuning took me a bit because it was putting out too much material until I finally realized that the "minimum rpm" for the extruder was too high. This was giving me grief because the machine was just running too fast and I couldn't slow it down. I think it was set at 3 or something, then I put it back to .1 (because a stepper has no minimum rpm) and that fixed everything. My x and y were now able to be controlled, speed wise.

    You will find that when you are actually printing, it will turn very slowly, not like the geared extruder designs that are out there.

    It takes a bit of fiddling but that's just part of the fun! I can't wait to see what you print.
    As motor tuning parameters in Mach 3 influences motor revs and I am not sure how to intrerpret the DRO A axis values or how Kisslicer calculates its outputs, can you clarify what motor tuning values i should use? Should steps/mm be set to 200 for example?

    I cannot physically play with this as i have no filament on hand.

  89. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by gadget47 View Post
    Awesome Advall, I'm following your lead.
    here are some pics of my first attempt to make the extruder. This is delrin with specs as per the pdf file here. I only did the left side so far. I still have to machine the right, top and bottom.
    I started to setup the cutpath for the hobbed drives- I could easily do them on the lathe by hand but wanted to try to make them on the 4th axis attachement- I'll keep you posted either way I do them.
    sorry I haven't been able to start this project till now- lots of lifes curveballs.
    more to follow....
    As I do not have a lathe I have to await for a mate to turn up the drive rollers for me. I am very interesed in your proposed hobbing technique. Please keep us posted and I will do the same

  90. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by Advall View Post
    As motor tuning parameters in Mach 3 influences motor revs and I am not sure how to intrerpret the DRO A axis values or how Kisslicer calculates its outputs, can you clarify what motor tuning values i should use? Should steps/mm be set to 200 for example?

    I cannot physically play with this as i have no filament on hand.
    You can play around with filament used in grass trimmers while you are waiting for yours to arrive - it comes in 2mm size but it is nylon usually. It won't work well for printing due to moisture content but it's good to test extruder movement.

    My steps/mm setting is 39.878 based on 1/2 diameter drive pulley and 1600 steps per rev on the stepper driver(if I remember correctly!).

  91. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by fabitrabbit View Post
    You can play around with filament used in grass trimmers while you are waiting for yours to arrive - it comes in 2mm size but it is nylon usually. It won't work well for printing due to moisture content but it's good to test extruder movement.

    My steps/mm setting is 39.878 based on 1/2 diameter drive pulley and 1600 steps per rev on the stepper driver(if I remember correctly!).
    Thanks Fabitrabbit for your response.

    I set my machine as follows
    mm/REV - 44 (14mm dia rollers)
    Min RPM - 0.10
    Max Rpm - 60
    Filament Dia - 1.70
    Nozzel Dia - 0.50
    Slice - 0.25
    Steps/mm (in Mach 3) 2000 ie 200 x 10 microsteps - So that 1 x DRO unit = 1 X Rev

    The steppers are going far too fast as it took 4.7 revs ie 207 mm of filament for a 80mm run length.

    It must be a Kisslicer config problem but I cannot see how to correct. Any ideas?

  92. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by Advall View Post
    Thanks Fabitrabbit for your response.

    I set my machine as follows
    mm/REV - 44 (14mm dia rollers)
    Min RPM - 0.10
    Max Rpm - 60
    Filament Dia - 1.70
    Nozzel Dia - 0.50
    Slice - 0.25
    Steps/mm (in Mach 3) 2000 ie 200 x 10 microsteps - So that 1 x DRO unit = 1 X Rev

    The steppers are going far too fast as it took 4.7 revs ie 207 mm of filament for a 80mm run length.

    It must be a Kisslicer config problem but I cannot see how to correct. Any ideas?
    Having just played with the programms it seems Kisslicer does very little with the mm/rev setting. (I cannot find that such a value is requested in Slic3r) It seems the Mach3 DRO readout is the calculated filament length in mm. One then needs to alter the steps per mm in Mach3 in line with the steps per rev and the steps per mm. Accordingly I have altered the motor tuning steps/mm to equal the steps per rev divided by the mm/rev . In my case 2000/44= 45.4545 steps per mm.

    I hope this is the correct procedure.

  93. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by Advall View Post
    Having just played with the programms it seems Kisslicer does very little with the mm/rev setting. (I cannot find that such a value is requested in Slic3r) It seems the Mach3 DRO readout is the calculated filament length in mm. One then needs to alter the steps per mm in Mach3 in line with the steps per rev and the steps per mm. Accordingly I have altered the motor tuning steps/mm to equal the steps per rev divided by the mm/rev . In my case 2000/44= 45.4545 steps per mm.

    I hope this is the correct procedure.
    Kisslicer will vary the speed of the filament as it goes along. If you move 80mm it doesn't mean it will extrude 80mm of filament. It does some math based on your nozzle size vs layer height vs speed of travel, etc... Your settings sound about right but I will check my Mach motor tuning settings this evening and post what I find.

  94. #94
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    Can someone describe a little more in detail on how I would wire the Polulu stepper driver into the output terminals of the G540?

    I keep seeing that there are 2 extra outputs for additional drivers, however it doesnt add up in my head because the Polulu board looks to need step/direction

    "My" logic tells me that I would only be able to use 1 additional driver.

    Step on terminal 5 and direction on terminal 6, is this the correct way of doing it?

  95. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by Advall View Post
    The first pic shows the adjustable side as milled. The fixed side has a circular hole and no adjustment slots. The rear of the assembly is a tongue sized to fill the ID of the tube folded up from the rear and epoxied to the main frame. This is attached to the mounting plate with 2 interior bolts. Milled on my CNC router

    The second and third pics are general arrangements showing the PTFE tube and insulating washers and heater block. The large holes are to gain acess to the motor mounting screws. Only 2 motor bolts used on the adjustable motor

    The last pic show the heater block (not connected) It uses 2 x 12 Ohm wirewound ceramic resistors wired in parallel powered by a 12.8 Volt supply.

    The heater is controlled by a PID digital temperature controller and a solid state relay. Simple Off/On control gives temperature range of +1/-2 degrees C at 200 deg C in a static test. Using PID would improve this.

    I found the 12 Volt fan was an overkill so I am driving it at 3.5 Volts derived from a 12 v DC source and a LED lamp dimmer .This is adequate to keep the frame cool.

    Looks great! I really like the Tube frame.

  96. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by Advall View Post
    Having just played with the programms it seems Kisslicer does very little with the mm/rev setting. (I cannot find that such a value is requested in Slic3r) It seems the Mach3 DRO readout is the calculated filament length in mm. One then needs to alter the steps per mm in Mach3 in line with the steps per rev and the steps per mm. Accordingly I have altered the motor tuning steps/mm to equal the steps per rev divided by the mm/rev . In my case 2000/44= 45.4545 steps per mm.

    I hope this is the correct procedure.
    It will take a bit of trial and error, once you get some plastic flowing thru it will be easier to get a feeling of what speeds and feeds you need, as for speed in mach, I set it up almost like the steppers on the cnc, which is not faster then what the plastic can extrude thru the nozzle, before stalling,

    Placing my fingers on the filiment, while jogging, I can feel little clicks when the steppers start to skip or stall, I then back off the velocity a bit from there.

  97. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by gadget47 View Post
    Awesome Advall, I'm following your lead.
    here are some pics of my first attempt to make the extruder. This is delrin with specs as per the pdf file here. I only did the left side so far. I still have to machine the right, top and bottom.
    I started to setup the cutpath for the hobbed drives- I could easily do them on the lathe by hand but wanted to try to make them on the 4th axis attachement- I'll keep you posted either way I do them.
    sorry I haven't been able to start this project till now- lots of lifes curveballs.
    more to follow....

    Nice start, should be good for many hours of entertainment,
    Myself included, I have many projects on the go right now, I havenít touched my 3d printer in weeks,

  98. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by GregSilver View Post
    Can someone describe a little more in detail on how I would wire the Polulu stepper driver into the output terminals of the G540?

    I keep seeing that there are 2 extra outputs for additional drivers, however it doesnt add up in my head because the Polulu board looks to need step/direction

    "My" logic tells me that I would only be able to use 1 additional driver.

    Step on terminal 5 and direction on terminal 6, is this the correct way of doing it?
    I am not 100% sure, of all the g540 versions, (I think they are on ver.8?)
    but the g540 is nothing more then a step and direction driver, it’s possible to bi-pass any unused parallel port output pins
    before they enter the driver, for step and direction

  99. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockcliff View Post
    I am not 100% sure, of all the g540 versions, (I think they are on ver.8?)
    but the g540 is nothing more then a step and direction driver, itís possible to bi-pass any unused parallel port output pins
    before they enter the driver, for step and direction
    I played around with this over the weekend. the G540 gives access to pin 1 and 17 on the terminal block ( terminal pins 5&6 ) so adding another axis is pretty easy.

    I however had no luck with the pololu driver. It seems it is DOA. The stepper energizes, but nothing more. Their support seems to take forever to respond to email/forum posts. Im not sure if I should just buy another one or get a single axis gecko drive.

  100. #100
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    My next question is....

    Without breaking the bank, what is a good heated bed and a controller board to monitor temps to the extruder and bed?

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